[00:00:00] Cory: What does success mean to you? Defining success in a field can define the field. Defining success for ourselves will define our lives. And so here, friend and coach of mine, Paul Zelizer and me go through the very important exercise of defining what to each of us makes for a successful social entrepreneur. Paul is a business coach for social entrepreneurs and host of the Awarepreneurs Podcast, where he's published over 300 episodes with deep dive interviews. with world class social entrepreneurs. Here we have a unique style of show for you where back and forth, Paul and me reveal each of our own top five characteristics for success in social entrepreneurship.

[00:00:49] Cory: Before we recorded the conversation you're about to hear. We each created our own lists with no knowledge of the others to see collectively what sort of definition we might come [00:01:00] up with for what it means, what it looks like to be a successful social entrepreneur. This same conversation in a slightly different final edit is likewise being released on Paul's show, Awarepreneurs, which if you're curious to check out.

[00:01:16] Cory: You can go to awarepreneurs. com or search for the show wherever you get your podcasts. In this episode here on the social entrepreneurship and innovation podcast with me, Corey Ames, as your host, you'll hear Paul's origin story to social entrepreneurship. And then together are 10 characteristics of successful social entrepreneurs.

[00:01:40] Cory: Before we dive in by getting an introduction to Paul, we'll hear a quick word from our partners that make this show possible.

[00:01:54] Cory: The social entrepreneurship and innovation podcast is supported by transform. [00:02:00] Listen to the incredible we transform lives podcast to hear about the extraordinary impact of entrepreneurship in the business innovations, driving social and environmental change in communities across Africa, South Asia.

[00:02:15] Cory: Find We Transform Lives wherever you listen to your podcasts and for more information. Visit www.transform.global. Intrepid Travel is the world's largest travel B Corp and its mission is to create positive change through the joy of travel. With more than 950 small group trips on every continent, intrepid creates that change by taking travelers on soul defining.

[00:02:42] Cory: Life changing adventures that give back to the communities they visit. Traveling with Intrepid, you can explore the greatest icon of ancient South America, Machu Picchu, on a guided tour. Or you can see Vietnam through an exciting mix of transport including motorbike, sandpan, junk style boat, [00:03:00] bus, and train.

[00:03:01] Cory: Intrepid Travel offers small group travel that's good all over. Good views, good friends, and good times with over 1, 000 trips in more than 100 countries. You can find out more@intrepidtravel.com. It's hard to make

[00:03:15] Paul Z: sense of my journey if you don't have the frame. I'm not particularly religious, but I'm very culturally Jewish and particularly a progressive Jew and one of our core values that.

[00:03:29] Paul Z: Um, I hold very dear, but also my brother, I'll tell you about him, but he's an impact podcaster and my girlfriend is also Jewish and none of us are particularly religious, but there is a core value to Kuhn or to Kuhn alone, which means to work for the healing of our world, to, to work towards justice and to work towards equity.

[00:03:52] Paul Z: And it's baked into who I am like. My ancestors have been thinking about that for literally thousands of [00:04:00] years. And some of that just comes from, um, uh, lots of experience of knowing what it feels like not to be treated in all sorts of ways, including like, you know, my family originally is from about 20 minutes outside of Warsaw, uh, Warsaw, Poland.

[00:04:19] Paul Z: And if anybody's ever heard of the Warsaw Ghetto, um, That's literally where my family comes from. And any Zalazars who didn't leave are now dead because they died in the Holocaust. So. When I look back on my journey, it's kind of like that's been one of the most stable things. And I'm a little older than you, Corey, so I've had, you know, lots of time in the saddle.

[00:04:46] Paul Z: But when I, and it was a complicated situation. I grew up in Westchester County, one of the Per capita places in the United States where there is the highest investment in public schools per pupil in the [00:05:00] country. Very white. Um, you know, just very suburban New York City. And my dad pretty early on, for instance, he was an accountant.

[00:05:10] Paul Z: He worked for an oil company. Um, and some other, like, not, it, it was weird to get these, like, Cultural values of justice and equity and thinking about our planet and then look around in my own family, by the way, I love my dad now, but it was very complicated looking around a place where a lot of business and power players were making decisions that didn't make sense.

[00:05:36] Paul Z: And I knew very young, something was off. about how we were living as human beings on this planet. And yet I'm surrounded by people who are benefiting by those decisions. And you know, whether they were the, many of them were leaders in medical systems and business world and, and people were there, you know, driving their BMWs and living [00:06:00] in quite.

[00:06:00] Paul Z: Um, a lot of, um, well being and a lot of resources, right? And as a young human, I was like, what is this? And how do you make sense of this? And what does integrity look like? And I'm dating myself a little bit, but if you fast forward to like college. Um, Ronald Reagan was president and talking about winning nuclear wars, right?

[00:06:22] Paul Z: What do you do if you're an intelligent human and a world leader, uh, with the largest military on the planet is talking about winning who wins in nuclear war. Um, it just didn't make sense. So. I was wired as, you know, I was programmed from a culture that was like, Hey, you're a white guy. You're smart. I was in, you know, advanced student, you know, enrichment programs and all that.

[00:06:49] Paul Z: I was, I was programmed to be a doctor, lawyer or business leader. And yet the systems we had didn't make sense to me. So when I came into my, what [00:07:00] am I going to do after college phase of life? It was very much, how do I help people? And how do I start to work on some of these very broken systems? Where do I live?

[00:07:11] Paul Z: Where do I work that fits with these values? And it was not an easy time in my early twenties as I was sorting all that out. The short version of is I wound up in northern New Mexico in October of 1993, a place that if you've never been here, it's not like much of America. Let's just say that it has a culture and a flavor and a relationality used to be Mexico.

[00:07:41] Paul Z: Um, and It has the second highest indigenous population in the country. Only Alaska has more Native Americans than New Mexico. Very high. We're, we're the first, what's called, I don't like this language, but we're the first majority, minority, I'm sorry, minority, majority state. In other [00:08:00] words, because of our very high Latinx population and very high indigenous population, you just add it all up.

[00:08:06] Paul Z: Lots of other folks, you know, there's the international district in Albuquerque that's not far from where I live. It's just a very rich culturally place. And we are the first state in America to have, um, an, a majority of people of color living in this state because of that. So it just, it made sense if I'm going to stay in America, I'm proud to live in Northern New Mexico, to live in New Mexico.

[00:08:29] Paul Z: Right. Anyway, I wound up getting in the world of nonprofits and activism, doing stuff around engaging young men as fathers. And we were offering betters intervention and helping men look at violent behavior in their families and doing restorative justice type initiatives with young people doing all that work.

[00:08:48] Paul Z: And it was incredible 15 years, um, became a nonprofit. You know, executive director, and I loved the work. I loved learning and being able [00:09:00] to be, you know, I was a white guy with a, I wound up studying, um, community mental health. I have a master's degree in counseling psychology. So I was a white guy with a degree who could interface with court systems and principals and judges and police and community leaders and help give language to folks who historically were not.

[00:09:23] Paul Z: Being taken seriously at the tables, like let's say a leader from one of the Pueblos here or a small, you know, grandmother that we met in a community initiative and a small community like Cuesta, New Mexico, where there's like a church, a health clinic, a school and a town office and not much else. Right.

[00:09:46] Paul Z: How do we help some of the initiatives they were wanting to do around? Um, Working when there were social problems in ways that were culturally based and [00:10:00] leverage some of the informal resources, because a lot of the formal resources were doing harm, whether that was police intervention or certain things that were happening in the school system.

[00:10:10] Paul Z: Did that for 15 years, you know, like I said, work my way up into positions of leadership, but ultimately just had a really bad burnout experience. It was so hardcore. The work was sacred, but trying to keep the money coming in and a nonprofit structure to do work like that really, really good work, but trying to keep the work going with a lot of attention to all of the complexities and the nuances of working in marginalized communities.

[00:10:34] Paul Z: And keep the funding in just like, I was fried, really, really fried. That time I had a kid now my son is 23 years old, but at the time, like a young child was married, trying to support a household it and it, it just fried me. So I, I knew that. This kind of work was my purpose, but those structures were not sustainable for [00:11:00] anybody who had certain kinds of commitments.

[00:11:02] Paul Z: And I wasn't living fancily, but just trying to run a nonprofit is hard work, at least with the mindset that I and many others had had at the time. So I knew I had to go into the world of business. That was the horsepower. That's where the resources were. That was where you go if you wanted to have, you know, Real credibility with power leaders.

[00:11:23] Paul Z: Not just like the leftover piles of resources, but like there was something happening in the world of business. I didn't have any education. I didn't know how it worked. I was scared. Cause I'm a nonprofit, you know, helper counselor type, but I was like. I got to figure it out if I want to keep doing this work, either that or just drop out and like, you know, go be a normal business leader or go get retrained as an accountant or something like that.

[00:11:50] Paul Z: And I couldn't do it or I chose not to. So that was 16 years ago now. Um, we didn't even know what to call it back then was a conscious business or. You [00:12:00] know, uh, there were so many different labels, social entrepreneurship was in there, but it wasn't commonly used back then and took us a while to find each other.

[00:12:10] Paul Z: Entrepreneurship for good. Is it the B Corp movement? There were so many ways people were iterating. Um, but yeah, I kind of found myself in that conversation 16 years ago and started going to conferences, listening to podcast reading. Books, you know, all sorts of that, trying to figure out how do you do this?

[00:12:30] Paul Z: And over the past 16 years now have built up a pretty robust, um, set of experiences from growing a social entrepreneur community of over 250 members to launching what's now one of the longer running social entrepreneur podcasts on the planet and interviewing people, you know. all over the world who are doing these kind of initiatives.

[00:12:55] Paul Z: I came from the impact world and said to sustain, I had to figure out the [00:13:00] entrepreneur world and I'm the kind of person, if I like put my feet in, even if I'm scared, I put them both in and over the course of 16 years have really built up my business coaching skills, which is how I monetize what I do. Um, and yeah, it's really.

[00:13:16] Paul Z: Been a blessing, you know, I'm the business coach here in Albuquerque for a small business administration, the SBA cohort called the SBA thrive program. So I'm like a business coach and accelerators and, um, got recruited for that position. Like, like I've, I've spent 16 years diligently looking at what helps.

[00:13:38] Paul Z: Particularly small business leaders thrive and then apply that with nuance into the social entrepreneur context. So that's a little bit

[00:13:47] Cory: about my journey. Thanks, Paul. And I'm wondering how soon did the coaching come up for you as something you did Salesforce? Stoke started to [00:14:00] transition into, you know, as you mentioned, not exactly called this when you started, but the social entrepreneurial field.

[00:14:06] Paul Z: It's great question. It was the natural place for me to go. Coaching was, um, now it's like there's a coach on every street corner, but you go about six or 27 coaches on every street corner of some variety of another. But again, go back 16 years ago. Wasn't that common? It was just starting to get traction.

[00:14:23] Paul Z: I was curious about it, and it was a natural thing. Skill transfer, like, for instance, in my, um, community mental health days, I got trained in solution focused therapy. I get right up the street. I live in Albuquerque, New Mexico. If anybody's heard of motivational interviewing, one of the founders of motivational interviewing is Bill Miller and he's at, you know, uh, UNM, the university in New Mexico.

[00:14:47] Paul Z: It's like three miles from my house. So I got trained in motivational interview and coaching has borrowed heavily from both of those skill sets and not given credit to it. I'm, I'm not okay with that coaches out there. You need to know [00:15:00] where your skill set comes from. And if you are using the word coaching, you are standing on the shoulders of people like Bill Miller of motivational interviewing founder fame and solution focused therapy.

[00:15:11] Paul Z: So I got trained in these original practice. This is which coaching leaned really heavily into. So it's kind of a easy, um, way to start to be able to look at monetizing my skill set. And I just leaned into how do I use these skills in service to, Entrepreneurs and service providers and small businesses, as opposed to a situation where there was a conflict between a parent and a young child, you know, a teenager or something.

[00:15:40] Cory: So I guess, uh, along those lines, I mean, you, you maybe allude to it a little bit, just right, right there, but how did the 15 or so years of, of social work and community based work, uh, really inform. The lens through which you, you, you coach and support, uh, uh, businesses and business leaders [00:16:00] now.

[00:16:01] Paul Z: Yeah. It was in many ways, it was a skill transfer.

[00:16:04] Paul Z: I was working at that. Now I live in Albuquerque at the time I lived up in Northern New Mexico, which is, um, quite rural. New Mexico has. 2. 2 million people in the entire state and was working in, you know, a bunch of the initiatives that I was involved in. I was working on the Pueblos, uh, my last social work jobs.

[00:16:24] Paul Z: I was a contractor with the Bureau of Indian Affairs to work with some of the Northern Pueblos and some of the issues there to bring some of those restorative practices into, to, to. Offer that as a possible way of, um, addressing some of the issues that families with young people who are running into trouble with the system, whether it was school system or probation type systems.

[00:16:49] Paul Z: Um, so anyway, like I had some sense of trying to do culturally appropriate work. Listening to communities and say, yeah, it just, it was, it was bringing that [00:17:00] skillset, just like I had worked hard to bring my community mental health training and put it in service to marginalized communities. It was similar kind of approach or like, Oh, look at that.

[00:17:12] Paul Z: There's. This growing awareness that coaching is a useful, um, approach, uh, as opposed to like the more common business consulting approach, which I've also trained in since then. But, but I already knew how to think about using these type of approaches, like motivational interview, like Deep listening, like community engagement, like solution focused, uh, applications of some of the training I had in service to impact oriented initiatives.

[00:17:44] Paul Z: But now I was working with founders instead of through a grant or through some sort of federal kind of institution or state institution like the BIA or something that New Mexico state funded. Now as. direct, [00:18:00] I was working to directly provide value to a founder or a leadership team as opposed to, um, the state of New Mexico said, Hey, let's go help in all schools and counselors who are overwhelmed or kids who are getting in trouble.

[00:18:14] Paul Z: So, um, yeah, it was. It was a shift, but it wasn't that radical. The biggest part of it, honestly, Corey, was I had to get over my fear. Cause now like my paycheck was, there was no paycheck or was only revenue that I generated and had to ask people for now I'm comfortable with that. But that was a really hard transition, honestly, for me internally, like, I don't know why it was so different, but to write a grant or to have a donor, give me a check.

[00:18:43] Paul Z: Give us a check as the nonprofit founder. Um, I knew how to do that and I just had a lot of mental blocks. I think a lot of nonprofit people do, but I certainly did. So that was, it was like, oh, this isn't that different. I'm just providing value to a [00:19:00] leadership team or an individual who's launching a business.

[00:19:03] Paul Z: And yet it's the same process of listening and holding accountable and giving them options and helping them do research and helping them start to find out and sequence things. When do I do certain things? Coaches and consultants have been doing that for years. I knew how to do that, but somehow I was just really felt unprepared to do was a lot of my first five years.

[00:19:28] Paul Z: How do you do that? How do I get comfortable with money? What about taxes? What about, Bookkeeping, how do you do marketing? I had no zero training in any of that. And I was terrified. So I had to work with my fear and just learn the skills. How about you? Like that transition, uh, you were going from marketing agency and CEO to your own business, working with social entrepreneurs.

[00:19:54] Paul Z: What, what was that transition like for you?

[00:19:56] Cory: Uh, you know, it was. Nice to [00:20:00] have what seemed like a very marketable skill set, you know, right right out of the gate And so that was a little bit as to how I got started and thought that you know one While I was more in this exploratory phase of both my personal and professional life That that would be the way in which I could pay the bills, you know, and likewise the nice thing about Podcasting and the effects that, you know, that that can have for building a community and getting connected with with interesting people that, you know, want to learn more about, um, enough of those people I connected with through my show, you know, we're in need of marketing services and that was predominantly in, you know, search engine optimization and content marketing.

[00:20:42] Cory: And so. Well, you know, I won't, I definitely won't say it wasn't without his bumps that, you know, that, that helped to kind of ease the transition first and foremost. But um, I guess the greatest difficulty was really in finding even within the, the broad [00:21:00] community of, of social entrepreneurship, purpose driven business, like finding the community within the community.

[00:21:06] Cory: You know, uh, because as you know, I'm, I'm sure we'll, we'll maybe, uh, illuminate with what, what we share in our talk here later on, but there's a wide spectrum through which, you know, sustainability in business exists, social entrepreneurship exists. The terms are used much more widely now than it sounds like, uh, uh, attached to, to your origin story, Paul.

[00:21:28] Cory: And so with that, that's great. You know, it's, it's really become more popular. It's become. You know, more part of the mainstream conversation in business, I do think that the challenges with that though, is that there, there aren't as clear of definitions, you know, and like there, there's communities within communities and the priorities and values between them.

[00:21:49] Cory: While there's a lot of consistency, there's nuance. That becomes incredibly important. And so, um, yeah, I guess that that's the biggest challenge is exactly thinking about, you [00:22:00] know, where I personally fit into it and as well, myself kind of like detaching a little bit from an identity of like, I'm a marketing person to that being a skill set of mine.

[00:22:10] Cory: And then, you know, kind of moving into the next chapter of, of my own, uh, development as, as an entrepreneur. And then, you know, likewise, she's kind of a, a creator. And so, um. Yeah, it's that that's been a very, um, interesting change, just has, you know, been grateful to connect with so many people and go to conferences and all that kind of stuff.

[00:22:33] Cory: Uh, but I and also I do feel like I've just been a sponge to like, You know, Oh, I have a new understanding of something going to a different event. And then talking with someone, have a new understanding of something, you know, and yeah, the, the, the breakthroughs are, are never ending. It seems. A

[00:22:49] Paul Z: hundred percent.

[00:22:50] Paul Z: Yeah. Here we are 2023 and like Walmart has a social impact team and initiative and they're talking about it. And I don't know, I have an email in my [00:23:00] box. I have to get back to her Nina Simons from Bioneers. Right. And who had also. Long way more than you and I put together her and Kenny from Bioneers.

[00:23:10] Paul Z: They've been at it longer than you and I put together, Corey, right? So what does Bioneers mean by social impact and what does Nina mean? And what does Walmart mean? And they're both using, at least on the surface, some similar terms. And that's both beautiful, but it's also complicated because, you know, Well, I'll just leave it at that.

[00:23:27] Paul Z: It's complicated. Here in 2023, headed into 2024.

[00:23:32] Cory: Well, absolutely. And I think that that kind of segues nicely to the preparation that you and I did for this conversation where we're gonna, um. Reflect on on what might be indicators or characteristics of success in social entrepreneurship. We each got our own lists, which we haven't shared with

[00:23:51] Paul Z: each other.

[00:23:51] Paul Z: That's right. We did not compare lists. That was part of the concept here. Corey, you make yours, I'll make mine and we'll compare live what we [00:24:00] came up with.

[00:24:00] Cory: Absolutely. And then, you know, so I, I think it, it, It is important to even have this discussion while there will be maybe some differences and I think I could have gotten some more characteristics out of my list if, you know, if we had to go to 10.

[00:24:12] Cory: So I think that would, you know, and just my reflection on the exercise, like there's more I was coming up with and maybe in some way they're all the same thing, but a different you know, word or phrase for it, but

[00:24:20] Paul Z: how Corey and Paul produced a three hour podcast, right?

[00:24:25] Cory: But just to tie it on that, that last section, I think these things are really important to talk about for the sake of, of starting to build definitions of, you know, what, what Social entrepreneurship actually is, you know, and, and what sustainability and business looks like and what it means because it, it is, it is significant.

[00:24:44] Cory: It is important. Uh, and it's not necessarily to, to point or exclude people and say, you know, this is social entrepreneurship and this isn't. However, I do think there, there is a natural effect of the thing you mentioned, you know, Bioneers versus a Walmart. If, [00:25:00] if Walmart chooses to use the language of, you know, regeneration, which, which they do, uh, they instantly have a much, you know, larger and more powerful and resourced megaphone than the folks at Bioneers do, you know?

[00:25:11] Cory: And so the effects and impacts on that, uh, and intent behind using that kind of language is, is really important. Um, and likewise, you know, for, for folks who are really, you know, bought in committed, it's, it's, I think, nice to kind of pin these things up as aspirational. You know, values, morals and ethics and things and traits to work towards.

[00:25:32] Cory: Um, I know, you know, I certainly think about it for, for my experience as a, you know, social entrepreneur, if you will, myself. So, um, Paul, with that, I'd say let's dive into these lists and, and. How about you get us started with, with number one, where do you want to start? What, what's the, the first trait that comes to mind for you?

[00:25:52] Cory: The first characteristic of success in social entrepreneurship.

[00:25:55] Paul Z: [00:26:00] The first one for me, Corey, is you listen to your community, you know, who you want to serve and you're listening to them. And it sounds really simple. And. I reflect back on me as a younger human, you know, I see a lot of social entrepreneurs. We see a problem. We see an issue. We see a challenge and we want to address the challenge, but sometimes we skip that listening part.

[00:26:24] Paul Z: Right. And, uh, I think I did as best I could. But if you go back to earlier, Paul, white Jewish guy from the relatively wealthy suburbs of New York, who comes out to New Mexico in his early twenties and is suddenly doing these, you know, projects on the Pueblos of Northern New Mexico. I listened as well as I could, but I hope I'm a better listener now than I was then.

[00:26:49] Paul Z: I. Some people tell me I'm good at that. I hope I've gotten better. I've tried to get better. Um, but I see a lot of social entrepreneurs get really [00:27:00] excited and impassioned to make a difference. But sometimes it feels like they skip a step of really understanding who they're trying to help and how that community is framing things, how that community wants to sequence things.

[00:27:16] Paul Z: They miss the step of really building trust. Like, okay, cool. We talked about it. We're all on the same page. Go, right. And like, especially if you're working with, let's say the Pueblos of Northern New Mexico, hundreds of years of being discounted and attempts to wipe them off the face of the earth, it's not like you have a 15 minute conversation as soon, if you choose to.

[00:27:41] Paul Z: Assume that that 15 minute or hour, even three conversation means you're ready to go. And the trust level is 27 on a scale of one to 10. You're not paying attention. And, and that's maybe a community that has more complexities and. More challenges than most, but I think [00:28:00] that's illustrative of I see a lot of social entrepreneurs try to jump into solutions and try to engage communities or put forth their business offering before they've really built the kind of engagement and trust that's going to lead to their long term

[00:28:19] Cory: success.

[00:28:21] Cory: Yeah, I think that's incredibly important, and that's so subtle. It seems to either go into a particular community that you hope to serve or whatever it might be and really have the patience and the discipline to, like you said, listen and see what it is that they perhaps need, want. Versus go to that community with a solution already determined, you know, that, that you have in hand and you get how people do that.

[00:28:51] Cory: Obviously, you know, you learn about something and discover something. You're like, this is what this community needs. This is what this what the world needs right [00:29:00] now. Uh, as opposed to. Yeah, really being considerate to and then humble, I think, uh, to be able to assume that you don't know exactly what people want and need and put in those, those hours in that very, you know, difficult kind of seeming like, like that research where it doesn't really feel like you're doing anything so much, you know, it doesn't exactly feel like the engine, uh, is running, but it's incredibly important.

[00:29:29] Cory: Uh, information, essential information, especially to, you know, crafting solutions to that will sustain and affect people in a truly positive way. So I, that's, that's a really wonderful one. What's number one

[00:29:42] Paul Z: for you, Kari?

[00:29:42] Cory: I think I'm going to start with, uh, generosity or, or the, the social entrepreneurs that, you know, I I've regarded as myself as, as most successful [00:30:00] is that, that they're just relentlessly generous and I think that this comes back to the fact that if you are doing this work broadly with, you know, very broad strokes goal of leaving the world better off than you found it or affecting, you know, some particular issue area or, or, uh, serving people on the planet, someone else working in a very similar space, comparable space, ideally you should have the same goal.

[00:30:32] Cory: You know, and, and those are too important of things, you know, whether we're talking about climate change and equality or whatever else, the specific issue area, those are too important of things for very conventional notions of competition, uh, to get in the way. And, you know, we, we were. Kind of enjoying this ourselves as we were talking about this before hitting record on this podcast.

[00:30:55] Cory: You know, we're both in the space of social entrepreneurial [00:31:00] podcasting and so in some shape or another might be seen as competing podcasts competing, you know, little micromedia companies ourselves. But here we are, you know, Grateful to be sharing each other's, you know, messages and in perspectives with with our own audiences.

[00:31:17] Cory: And so likewise, over the span of the hundreds of social entrepreneurs I've spoken with, I do think that it while sometimes it feels like it's a muscle that needs to be built, because I do think we're very wired to want to compete and that someone's success is at the expense of mine, Or, you know, as well, kind of tied up with all these different notions of what success is and supposed to look like.

[00:31:41] Cory: Uh, I think that, that especially for very experienced seasoned social entrepreneurs, you know, the muscle of generosity through opportunity or connection or resources or whatever it might be, it's just second nature. Um, and, and that's something that I've been really, really grateful to [00:32:00] enjoy myself, you know, and, and maybe considering myself.

[00:32:03] Cory: Uh, on on the earlier end of my career, likewise, like more excited as I, as I continue to establish myself, my own career, my own platforms and all that kind of stuff, uh, to help others along their way. So generosity is is a very, very important one for me that that I've recognized so far.

[00:32:21] Paul Z: I'm so glad I almost had this like I did.

[00:32:24] Paul Z: I had this physical reality like, Oh, wow. Yeah. Like wasn't on my list. Didn't even think about it. And I could immediately I went to the climate space. You mentioned that. So I I'm thinking of a couple of folks. Um, Candice Amore and I'm a scout for. The awesome climate optimized retirement solution called Carbon Collective and Breen Murphy.

[00:32:49] Paul Z: Um, they do office climate office hours where the Breen, for instance, puts it out on LinkedIn. I'll meet with anybody anywhere in the world, right? Here's somebody who's pretty, he's a CEO of a. [00:33:00] Climate optimized, you know, retirement fund. And he is meeting with people for no charge, open office policy. What are you working on?

[00:33:10] Paul Z: Like the world's on fire and we need every smart person we can possibly get. You're trying to find a job. You've got it. You're an entrepreneur like. In what other space does somebody not only do that, but publicly announced that they do that. I'll meet with anybody who's got anything and help any way I can.

[00:33:28] Paul Z: Um, and I immediately thought of several awesome climate leaders that do that. I had that experience when I was getting into the space. People have been incredibly generous with me. So anyway, just like, yeah, I'm glad we're doing this already, Corey, because it wasn't on my list. And I'm thinking, Yeah, Yeah, this Candace Breen, like, Oh yeah, wow.

[00:33:47] Paul Z: Yeah, right. I wouldn't be where I am and I didn't even put it on the list. So yeah, great

[00:33:51] Cory: one. Well, you know, and I, I think that adds a little bit to the definitions of, of social entrepreneurship, social entrepreneurship to some degree, because [00:34:00] you think about, you know, climate change and, and one of, of averting a complete.

[00:34:04] Cory: Climate catastrophe and, and hoping to restore and regenerate the planet in various aspects. If we're all on board for that, very legitimately for that goal, you know, like that, that is what the goal is. And so, you know, your individual organizations enterprise to capture whatever market share or, you know, take market share or whatever, or monopolize a particular sector that, that gets in the way of that goal.

[00:34:27] Cory: You know, I would say it doesn't, it's almost seems oxymoronic. And so, you know, does Walmart share that goal? You know, and do they approach their, their relationships with competition? We're going hard at Walmart today. I'm sorry. That's just the example that you brought up. No, I'm

[00:34:40] Paul Z: not sorry at all. I'm happy to go after home.

[00:34:43] Cory: Sure. Yeah. Anyways, I just think that that's an important thing, you know, for the, the context of, you know, people who really do walk the talk, uh, uh, walk the walk like that, you know, I think. At least in my experience. You'll, you'll notice that, that quality. Um, all right, Paul, next one on the list for [00:35:00] you.

[00:35:00] Paul Z: I'll use some technical language. I said, works to find product market fit. So in other words, if somebody doesn't know what that means, um, it, I'm not sure if we're going to do the video or not, but if you're listening to the audio, um, take your right hand and you think these are your values, your goals, the changes you want to have in the world in the with your fingers spread out is what the person you want to help.

[00:35:29] Paul Z: What they're, what they're thinking about, like, wow, I've really got this challenge, like the world's on fire and how do I use my, you know, retirement funds for good, right? That would be the challenge that, um, carbon collective is working on, right? Or in your case, Corey, it might be, Hey, I've got a business and it's a business that you're trying to make the world a better place, but I don't really understand SEO and what do I do?

[00:35:51] Paul Z: to, you know, get better at it, right? When those two things come together, well, the right hand being your goals and [00:36:00] the difference you want to make in the world and what your ideal client needs and how you help them when they slide in together, those two hands seamlessly, that's product market fit. Right.

[00:36:10] Paul Z: And I see so many social entrepreneurs because we're passionate about the issues, whether it's about racial equity or sustainable agriculture or clean water. I live in the desert in New Mexico, like we're the driest and we have, yeah, the driest state in the union. We have the least surface water, whatever your issue is.

[00:36:29] Paul Z: It's really. Easy to get passionate about your issue, but to forget that you're the way you financially sustain yourself and create a venture, a venture that can be around for the long haul is by providing a service and or products to somebody that services their needs as it syncs up to your goals. And I just watched so many social entrepreneurs who that isn't refined.

[00:36:56] Paul Z: So there's a lot of friction and they're out there. You know, working [00:37:00] for the issue in a very robust way, but then they're struggling financially. They don't have the ease and there's a lot of stress and a lot of friction in terms of their own financial wellbeing because the product market fit isn't something they took the time to make sure that they tweak it so that they can have a much more frictionless and a much more, just much more ease and wellbeing in the area.

[00:37:25] Paul Z: of their finances. So if you're going to be around for the long haul, I think there's a way to do that with great integrity. I think there's incredible opportunities. People are concerned about what's going on in our world on so many different levels. But if you're not paying attention to how your product or services syncs up with what your ideal client wants, you're setting yourself up for stress and problems.

[00:37:50] Cory: Yeah, I think that's an incredibly important point. Right. And. I think it's worth... Be and it's difficult to say it's kind of a [00:38:00] hindsight 2020 sort of thing, but it's really worth being patient for the time Like sometimes it feels like that kind of has to be revealed You know and it's almost like that you weren't ready for it to some degree, you know Like it reveals itself to you when you're ready to you know in some sort of Yoda type type fashion but I think of you know here like a few years and to grow on some old coming up You know, four or five years.

[00:38:27] Cory: I think where I've had any regrets or just my most stressful moments is when I've maybe over invested in pathways forward that that hadn't been established. You know, like there wasn't a clear, clear fit for it. And so to remain very kind of. Cautious and noncommittal to to investing in a particular business model or channel or whatever it might be until you have that certainty.

[00:38:53] Cory: You know, it's nice to keep things lean. I would say, you know, an overhead low, [00:39:00] uh, until you find that because. Uh, it, yeah, you can avoid yourself excess stress. Not, not to say that, you know, there's hard lessons that have to be learned. You can say things and then, you know, you kind of, it seems like people inevitably have to, to go through the acts themselves.

[00:39:12] Cory: I put myself in that category. So much advice I haven't followed, you

[00:39:15] Paul Z: know, here's everything I did wrong and don't do that. You're going to be great. Right?

[00:39:20] Cory: Absolutely. Yeah.

[00:39:22] Paul Z: So how about you? What's number two for you?

[00:39:24] Cory: I have one as as authentic or transparent and so kind of to to contrast this I say not political, um, And what I mean here is that the most successful social entrepreneurs in my experience have been very wide open and transparent with with the issue that they're working on, you know, the operations of their businesses, you know, whether it's service or product or whatever it might be, uh, and and they don't escape [00:40:00] or avoid the problems that they've yet to solve, you know, or the next mountains that that they've yet to climb.

[00:40:07] Cory: And so You know, you know, uh, a Walmart and Amazon or whomever it is or Apple, you know, with, with, I think, uh, a recent, um, you know, promo that they came out with that really kind of like waves this flag and says like, Hey, this is how sustainable we are. This is how ethical we are or whatever it might be. I have a little bit and it's not, you know, a universal 100 percent true principle, I'm sure, but the more that someone is kind of.

[00:40:32] Cory: Cheering, ranting, and raving about how sustainable, ethical they are, the more this kind of siren or alarm goes off in my head. I'm like, well, you know, what aren't you doing? You know, what, what are you trying to kind of distract from or avoid from? You know, and I say not political, cause you know, we're all quite familiar with, with a politician answering a different question.

[00:40:50] Cory: You know, they get asked a question in a press conference. You're like, Oh, are we doing that? Like, you know, what we are doing is this and it's a little bit of a diversion, but the, the entrepreneurs who [00:41:00] I, in, in this, this category of find to be most serious about the work. And, and as a product of that, I think make the most, most progress.

[00:41:08] Cory: They're really at innovating in their respective sector, whether we're talking about. An interview I had last week with someone who's crafting candles, you know, to, to a coral farm in the Bahamas, who I spoke to recently as well. The people who are most serious about the work are very serious about where they are at in the work.

[00:41:27] Cory: Um, and, and I think they are the ones who, who, you know, almost universally are in fact at the leading edge in, you know, in, in my experience in this research thus far. And so. They don't escape hard questions. You know, they're going to tell you what they need to do. Uh, and what's left for them to uncover before you do.

[00:41:45] Cory: Um, you know, and so there's no truly sustainable company, you know, yet, or, or, you know, a hundred percent ethical company. Cause so many of these things, you know, people are, are really figuring out, but the people who are, you know, really deep in this are going to tell you what they need to do before [00:42:00] you can.

[00:42:00] Paul Z: Yeah, absolutely. I love that, Corey. I'm thinking of somebody who had a product and they were talking about how, let's say it was a shoe, right? It's not. But in this case, I think they would prefer to remain anonymous. Let's say the upper of the shoe and getting the fabric sustainable for that was super. Um, they were doing a really good job, but the, uh, yeah.

[00:42:21] Paul Z: Tread of the shoe. They just didn't have anything that wasn't harmful throughout the whole production cycle because the expectation of grip and how long it lasts, they were really struggling with a certain part of the process. And they were totally transparent. If anybody can help because we're doing great here, but we're kind of sucking over here.

[00:42:43] Paul Z: But the expectations of the market, we have all these incredibly complicated Uh, very, uh, chemically sophisticated processes to create the bottom of a sneaker. And we're in a marketplace where that's somebody is what they expect. And we don't know how to do that yet. Right. So [00:43:00] we can do the uppers because that, you know, anyway, so, so I immediately jumped to a real world example and, and I love when people do that.

[00:43:09] Paul Z: And the same thing, I have a sense of dish. We're awesome. Everything's a hundred percent sustainable and we're so good. And let me tell you about how so good and we're doing so great. And you know, like we're so sustainable. Like I always, my same thing, my sense of like, I don't trust you because we're working in a system that has so many reference points of what's not sustained.

[00:43:30] Paul Z: We don't even know. And when somebody comes to me and said, we're doing really well here, but here's a place where we're kind of struggling and the market expects. X. And it's hard to replicate that with, you know, somebody I interviewed it was was in the solar space and in the renewable energy. And they're like, we do great when the sun's out.

[00:43:49] Paul Z: But at night it's really and the battery technology isn't quite there yet. And Most modern people don't want to have a four hour window where there's no power. [00:44:00] They get really upset about that. Right. And we don't, we're working on it and battery technology is getting better, but we're not quite there yet.

[00:44:07] Paul Z: Right. So I'm with you. Somebody says that. Yeah, we're good. But here's our challenge. We're making progress. I trust them so much more because our systems have been so unsustainable for so long. Almost every sector I can think of, there's some point where it's not truly sustainable, where it's, you know, there is exploitation happen of somebody in, uh, you know, at least develop economy, who's working for pennies on the, the hour that would get paid in a, you know, if, if they were in North America, let's say like something isn't a hundred percent yet.

[00:44:46] Paul Z: And if you can't talk about it. Then you're hiding things, and that's not serving the greater transition that I'm working towards. So yeah, a

[00:44:54] Cory: hundred percent agree. Well, and that, I mean, it comes back to what we said. It's about the goal. It's about [00:45:00] what are you trying to do? You know, are we trying to legitimately address these particular problems or are we trying to sell more products and build a business?

[00:45:07] Cory: You know, which, which goals come first is, is very important to pay attention to.

[00:45:12] Paul Z: We should back up a little bit and just talk about what the market is because the demand, the appetite for sustainable and equitable products is, has grown. I don't even know how many exits at least a hundred X since I started 16 years ago, but the appetite and the market share of sustainable and equitably produced products and services is.

[00:45:41] Paul Z: Massive. And which is why big players like Apple, like Walmart, like Facebook are, you know, Facebook is talking about how much they're powering their data centers, which is a tremendous amount of energy in sustainable ways. Right? And, and the reason that we're seeing such [00:46:00] Uh, more traditional players come into the space because there is a lot of money.

[00:46:05] Paul Z: So let's just put that

[00:46:06] Cory: on the table. Absolutely. Yeah. Really important to, to pay attention to and it, it makes for a lot for consumers to sort through. Uh, absolutely. But I think you're up Paul.

[00:46:17] Paul Z: I wrote down good mentorship. So Thank you. I'm a huge, huge fan of making new and different mistakes as opposed to the same ones over and over again. And, you know, when you're around for 16 years, and if you look at my first career was also in the impact space. So you could say in some ways, 31 years, this is in some ways, even though I wore different hats, this is all I've ever done is try to work towards making the world a better place, except for like.

[00:46:54] Paul Z: Uh, some landscaping experience in high school and college to pay the bills, um, and get some [00:47:00] money in summers. And, you know, when I wasn't at football practice, so I've done a little bit of landscaping and 31 plus years in the impacts in that time. I just see people making the same mistakes, um, siloing themselves off.

[00:47:15] Paul Z: And pretending nobody's ever thought about whatever issue it is before. Yes, maybe you're innovative and that's great. But are you thinking about the context and the, you know, who's gone before and building on that, or are you reinventing the wheel and setting yourself up for suffering and a good mentor can help you unpack that.

[00:47:37] Paul Z: Can help you get plugged into people who've, um, that, that generosity that you talked about earlier, Corey, and then just build on that so that you're not taking five years to learn from what's already out there, but let's get. That person's get that social entrepreneur, the data, the experience, the results.

[00:47:58] Paul Z: So it might not [00:48:00] be the exact same as Albuquerque is San Antonio or in Boston or in Hong Kong or in Africa, but there's a chance that there's something that you've been iterating on in San Antonio. That's somebody who's trying. Something similar in Singapore can learn from so a mentor can help you kind of know what's been going on and, um, reduce the pain of the learning experience and get to the results of helping the people you want to help faster, more smoothly, and also get that kind of income where you can do this and have the well being that at least my listeners are Looking for that's part of the reason that, um, yeah, people listen to the aware printers podcast.

[00:48:46] Paul Z: How do I learn from what's already been up and running? Um, in my case, most of my guests have been up and running for now decades. Um, and are doing things at scale. And the reason that I do that is because I want people to [00:49:00] have that experience of, you know, what's been going on before they launched so that there, um, can build on that as opposed to Yeah, Rub their face in the pavement.

[00:49:13] Cory: Well, absolutely. I mean, there's there's so many solo founders of enterprises now that getting that sounding pad additional mentorship and support is really immensely valuable, even for the sake of. You know, not feeling like you're just kind of spinning in your head, uh, for, for too long. And so, you know, my experience in the past with working with various coaches and another reason why, why we've had some chats here, uh, recently, Paul, but it's a good, like, it's almost like bumpers, especially if you have, you know, engage a coach or whatever and you talk every two weeks or four weeks, it's like those bumpers between like, how much can I, you know, spin myself off before them, you know, and not even really change anything so seriously or severely, but.

[00:49:58] Cory: Just to kind of have that [00:50:00] both the accountability but feedback and be like. You know, what you're worrying about is just kind of not even worth your, your mental ram. So those, those are really, uh, invaluable relationships to, to, to find and foster. All right, y'all. After a quick break to hear a word from our partners that make this show possible, we'll be back with our final five characteristics of success in social entrepreneurship.

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[00:52:31] Paul Z: What's your number three, Corey?

[00:52:47] Cory: My number three is courageous. And so I, I consider successful social entrepreneurs [00:53:00] courageous, mostly for how I see so many different scenarios in which. The status quo, uh, would, would lead them to believe that what they're deciding to do, what they want to do with a business enterprise or whatever organization, uh, just can't be done.

[00:53:18] Cory: You know, at this this certain point in time, and so I think social entrepreneurs almost by definition have to be a bit courageous and as well, that courage seems to develop with a little bit more, you know, as bringing it back to the muscle memory over time. And so, you know, whether it's saying that, you know, fair trade, organic coffee company like Dean's beans, organic coffee, who I've had conversations with when they were getting started 30 years ago, you know, it was kind of a completely foreign concept to go.

[00:53:49] Cory: Build direct relationships with the coffee farmers and you're exchanging, you know, the money just between them versus just a broker who's importing it into the U S or whatever it is, you know? And so Dean, [00:54:00] Dean Sikon, the founder there went to Peru, went to Ethiopia, went to Sumatra, went to wherever. You know, the coffee growing communities are and built relationships firsthand and has partnered with many of those growing communities for 10, 15, 20 or, you know, as many years as long as that, that business was established, but, you know, he was working in just kind of continue on this example.

[00:54:20] Cory: I think it's great because he first was an indigenous rights, uh, an environmental, uh, lawyer working for, uh, indigenous communities throughout the U S transition, got an invitation to work for, uh, uh, a nonprofit organization. I think started the nonprofit organization that was doing development work and coffee growing communities specifically throughout the world and so much of what he saw was coffee businesses, you know, not necessarily paying a fair price for the coffee that they're buying.

[00:54:50] Cory: And so his question was, you know, is would so much of this development work. And charity not be necessary if the industry as it were, you know, [00:55:00] treated the coffee growing communities, the farmers, uh, just fairly and paid them a fair price for their coffee. And a lot of people tell him like, no, you know, we don't do that for X, Y, and Z reason, whatever it is.

[00:55:09] Cory: And he's like, all right, I'm going to do it. You know, and that, that was the reason why he started that coffee company. And, you know, 30 years later he's, he's retired and sold it to employees and, you know, it's, it's remained profitable and been profitable since the year that he started. You know, and so it's, it's the courage to do something like that, even when it's not, you know, a coffee company is not a new invention, but doing it with the particular constraints, you know, and that, that, uh, these types of entrepreneurs accept where people are like, no, that's just, you know, that's not the way that business is done.

[00:55:38] Cory: He's like, no, it can be done that way. Absolutely. And I think those types of, uh, adventures take a bit of courage to start and maintain absolutely because the current, you know, isn't. Isn't typically headed that way, uh, especially with the behemoths of the world of Starbucks, Nespresso or whomever else, you know, um, they're, they're still buying an overwhelming percentage of the total [00:56:00] coffee bot in the world.

[00:56:00] Cory: But, uh, that, yeah, I think, I think courage is an incredibly important. Characteristic. I

[00:56:05] Paul Z: love that, Corey. And you think like 30 years ago, I can imagine how kind of, you know, the, the conversation might be, well, the unit price of coffee and it doesn't work in the economy that I like to just like, I'm going to figure that out.

[00:56:18] Paul Z: Yeah. That does take a lot of, in Yiddish, we would say chutzpah, right. It takes a lot of like inner resolve to go in a direction that. Some key leaders in the coffee space in Dean's case, right, would tell you that's just not going to work and you're going to struggle or you're going to go broke and blah, blah, blah.

[00:56:40] Paul Z: And to to say thank you for that input. I appreciate it. It gives me. Some awareness of like, Oh, okay. So my need to charge more, if I'm in Dean's shoes, I did the unit economics. I do have to pay attention to this. So I got to find a way to frame it, that people are willing to pay more. Cause if I try to compete at the same [00:57:00] price with Starbucks or whoever I lose, right, so you can take that data in as a courageous social entrepreneur.

[00:57:07] Paul Z: And I agree that you're going to have to have some of that inner chutzpah to. Find a way to work the numbers, work, the marketing, work, the storytelling, work, the community building, um, that such that. It all works, including your well being, um, which by the way, is my next one. Let's get into it. But anyway, I love that.

[00:57:32] Paul Z: I really like that.

[00:57:34] Paul Z: Yeah. So develops well being and resiliency skills. So I just wrote a blog post, you know, and I'll tell this story. Awesome client of mine. Um, you know, got a contract. And this contract doubled her yearly income and we got together for our next session [00:58:00] and it was a nice, you know, this isn't somebody making 5, 000 a year.

[00:58:03] Paul Z: Like, you know, yeah, it's easy to double your income. You're making 5, 000 a year, but that's not what we're talking about here. Um, got a really nice contract, double their income. We get on the call for our next session. And I'm like, congratulations. She's like, yeah, cool. And I, you know, I tell me what you think about this.

[00:58:20] Paul Z: And it was like right back into the work of helping more people and building out this awesome company that she has. And I was like, Whoa, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Yes. We're going to get there. I mean, I've made my Sort of value proposition that you can have a business that makes a difference in the world while living a good quality of life.

[00:58:40] Paul Z: So, so I'm with you. I want to get there. I'm not saying now you put your feet up on the coffee table because you got this one contract and you're making more money, but can we please, like, think about how. It would feel if you were an employee and you went to your boss and said, I just did this thing. And it doubled the company wrap and your [00:59:00] boss said to you, good job.

[00:59:00] Paul Z: Now let's talk about your whatever, your next goals. I got right back to work within seconds, which was literally the experience I had of this conversation with this client. And I was, it just got me thinking it's, it's one of my, one of the things that I've. Been blessed to study is something called appreciative inquiry.

[00:59:20] Paul Z: The two basic questions of appreciative inquiry is what's going well and what do we want to do more of? So, so this is not a original Paul Zelizer thought, but I also do have a master's in counseling psychology. And I just think of the human element. I've seen so many social entrepreneurs burn out or, um, You know, run on empty, have health problems, crash and burn some, whatever the weak link is, if it's a physical thing and that's where your mental health and well being or physical symptoms from ulcers to anxiety to insomnia, that [01:00:00] if you're here for the long haul, you literally won't be here for the long haul.

[01:00:04] Paul Z: If you can't. Put in a baseline of well being and resiliency practice for you and your team and a significant part of that is when something is going well, this is like one foundational practice comes right out of appreciative inquiry. When we do, we, we engage that community who never came, you know, that, that stakeholder who never came to one of our meetings before, or somebody listens to our show and they reach out or we get that big contract.

[01:00:34] Paul Z: Do we pause and say, I've been wanting to connect with that community. I've been hoping for a contract like this. Maybe it's the strategic partnership. Do we pause and just say. Thank you. And then do something to mark the occasion, whether that's take a loved one to a meal or like take a morning off in my case and go for a trail run in the mountains when I was not, it wasn't [01:01:00] scheduled, but I gave myself an extra three hours in nature, whatever that thing is.

[01:01:04] Paul Z: It doesn't have to be big, but are we building in resiliency and, uh, well being practices. I meditate every day for seven minutes. Yeah. It's seven. The research tells us we get benefits at two minutes, right? I'm not asking somebody to meditate an hour a day or even go for a week long retreat, but You can find two minutes if you get value out of that practice.

[01:01:27] Paul Z: So very simple practices like appreciative inquiry practices like mindfulness meditation, like exercise. There's so much research about how these simple practices, especially if we stack a couple. Increase our well being and I see so many social entrepreneurs not think about this until things start

[01:01:50] Cory: to crack.

[01:01:52] Cory: Yeah, extremely important and I think I'd add on to that that it's. Really, really valuable [01:02:00] to actually reflect on, uh, and feel through what are the things that are actually restorative to you. And not necessarily just things that, you know, you read an article on that you tell that would tell you that are, you know, kind of the best way to, to refresh and you should, you should do blank.

[01:02:19] Cory: Right. And I, you know, it's certainly the kind of the entrepreneurial tendency to try and optimize, you know, and, and use every moment efficiently and effectively. Uh, but I do think you end up, you start doing things sort of like robotically as opposed to paying attention to what, what actually does, you know, help kind of fill your tank back up.

[01:02:36] Cory: And I think I've been more appreciative of this myself after my wife and I had our first baby, just because I've never been as tired as I ever have been at this point in my life. And so, you know, when there, there are those particular periods of time where, you know, I have some space to, to. choose my restorative activity of choice.

[01:02:56] Cory: I still notice like very much so the motor that's like, no, [01:03:00] you need to be reading or whatever. And doing this research for, you know, an interview, you have a couple of weeks down the road and it's like, ah, you know, I think I'm going to watch some good TV right now, you know, and

[01:03:09] Paul Z: like, I need a nap because I didn't sleep so well last

[01:03:12] Cory: or, you know, like spending, like getting connected with friends.

[01:03:15] Cory: And I love to play pickup basketball and, you know, my friends and I play weekly and it's like, you can, you can. Reason through coming before those various things as opposed to like, Oh, no, that's something that I really enjoy. Uh, and it's not necessarily what the latest, you know, research or whatever is totally not, you know, don't get me wrong.

[01:03:34] Cory: I, you know, I've long been an on and off again meditator, but I think those things, if that doesn't work for someone, it doesn't work for them, you know, is to like, really You probably already know these activities for yourself. It's worth to be open minded and test some of these new things out, you know, and see if you really do enjoy them.

[01:03:49] Cory: But, uh, yeah, don't be careful not to optimize even, even the time that's, you know, kind of supposed to be unoptimized and, and, and restorative. I know I've gotten myself well into that [01:04:00] trap before and just been like, woof, even that's exhausting.

[01:04:02] Paul Z: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for bringing that nuance in. That's a, that's really important, Corey.

[01:04:08] Paul Z: So how about you? What's the next one on your list?

[01:04:10] Cory: This one. I have is convicted. And so what I mean to say here is that the most successful social entrepreneurs, uh, uh, I've, I've encountered, I feel like are, are very assured in themselves in what, in what they believe in, what they value and as well. Likewise, you know, what is what is their perspective on how they approach the world?

[01:04:43] Cory: This doesn't mean that they're not open minded and very receptive. You know, that can be certainly, uh, underneath, you know, a value of theirs. But if you think about the millions of micro decisions that go into play. Of [01:05:00] choosing to start a business or organization and run it in such a way that is, that is as sustainable and ethical as you hope it would be and achieve the impact that you're looking for.

[01:05:10] Cory: There are so many small compromises that you might be tested with, especially given, you know, as we mentioned before, the fate of the current in which way it heads, you know, the conversation I had last week, likewise, with that, that candle maker, um, keep candles, a really cool company out of the New York area.

[01:05:28] Cory: Um, What, uh, Harry, who's the, the founder of that Harry dual, the founder of that company reflect to me is like, sometimes it feels like you're walking next to an interstate and people driving, you know, 85 miles an hour as, as they pass you by, you know, and it's like this, what he perceives and I resonate with him on this of what he perceives is like, you know, the very conventional kind of business trajectory, building a business trajectory.

[01:05:53] Cory: Likewise, you know, you could use the example of the coffee company. It's much quicker and easy to buy. Right. [01:06:00] From a broker who, you know, brought the coffee into the United States, it's much more difficult and takes a lot of energy, time, resources, whatever, to go establish relationships with those communities themselves, obviously way more inertia has required so much more resistance to getting that done and maintaining those relationships.

[01:06:17] Cory: Uh, and so it might feel like there's a fast track always, right? And so. The conviction that I see these people have and it's something that can as well be sharpened with time. But there I noticed they're very serious in the way in which they think about the industry. They're a part of, you know, the way they think about being an entrepreneur and, you know, no decision is without consequence.

[01:06:38] Cory: And I don't mean to, like, make that a scary thing, but You know, even using the context of, uh, social media or artificial intelligence tools, I do think, you know, the most serious, uh, social entrepreneurs I see and, you know, not serious being like, you know, they have some big, really impressive business, but they're so serious about their work and that they're [01:07:00] evaluating what are the moral and ethical implications of using these various tools in my business.

[01:07:04] Cory: You know, um, whatever it might be, that might replace a human's job, you know, on, on in a certain situation. And, and those aren't the ethical questions that the Amazon is evaluating. You know, they're seeing how they can continue to, to keep profit margins high and they're exhausting the labor supply in the United States.

[01:07:20] Cory: So they're worried about running it out of, out of laborers. And this is literally from internal documents, you know, using, uh, uh, Uh, you know, automation, artificial intelligence to, to reduce, you know, our, our human based labor needs. And so that's an example, but I do think that that conviction is really important and reflecting on what you value, what you believe, you know, and having really getting firm on, you know, what the principles you're kind of operating principles, you know, through how you go with the world of, you know, taking on many of the things we already mentioned here, you know, you're going to choose to be generous.

[01:07:53] Cory: In every interaction, are you going to choose to be, you know, courageous, whatever? I do feel like the entrepreneurs, uh, [01:08:00] um, that, you know, I most admire in, in regarding the space, they have this conviction to where I'm like, yeah, they, you know, while I may not agree a hundred percent of the time with them on, you know, whatever decision they decide to make, they clearly are, are quite, you know, uh, uh, assured and confident.

[01:08:14] Cory: Um, you know, because, because they thought very serious about, you know, who they are and what they believe and what they value.

[01:08:21] Paul Z: Absolutely. Yeah, I love that example, Corey. If you're not thinking about AI right now and robotics right now, please reconsider that choice. It's, it's such a, it's a tidal wave, um, that's impacting every space or will be impacting every space and the ethical concerns are huge.

[01:08:41] Paul Z: Yeah. I, uh, I don't know how, like, like I've been a front runner and encouraging my community and my episodes, solo episodes on AI and social entrepreneurs. My, my brother, who's a social entrepreneur leader, he has a podcast called the social career, the social change career [01:09:00] podcast, Craig Zelizer and my sister in law Catalina Rojas.

[01:09:03] Paul Z: And they do a course now, um, AI for, uh, social change leaders. Um, so they, the Zelizer. The impact family is saying, please think about this because it's so disruptive to so many things that you haven't maybe even thought of yet, or, you know, I'm still learning about it and the ethical concerns are massive, absolutely massive.

[01:09:30] Paul Z: And I agree with you that I don't know how to avoid it and be a leader in the social entrepreneur space. And I'm deeply concerned about the ethics. Um, so at the same time I'm using it and learning about it and recommending, uh, I'll give an example in the podcasting space. There's an awesome AI tool called cast magic, which, um, I use all the time.

[01:09:55] Paul Z: Not only does it do a transcript to you, just upload your episode when a [01:10:00] bunch of services do this, where it like gives you a transcript, you know, I'll run this through cast magic. But the thing that's unique about cast magic, it is a generative AI. So it uses the transcript of Corey and I talking to generate a LinkedIn post, a blog post, a newsletter article, a bunch of like.

[01:10:18] Paul Z: key moments, like the awesome things that Corey said, and they're all listed out the 15 quotable quotes that Corey said that you can use in various ways from an Instagram little 20 second dinner, 12 second thing or posted as a, you know, quotable quote, you know, uh, on a picture quote on Instagram, whatever, right?

[01:10:38] Paul Z: All of that. In seconds, right before your very eyes, it's it's and then if it's not already generating something, there's another panel in the software to say, Please write me a blank, you know, generate blank that you didn't already generate for whatever you might need in terms of your social or, you know, various assets.

[01:10:59] Paul Z: [01:11:00] Um, and it's using the words that Corey is saying, not it. Only a large language in, you know, like not it sounds like Corey or it sounds like Paul because it's using our extensive. Here we are, right? This is turning into a beautiful long interview. It's using our words as what it's, um Generating from as opposed to sort of random large language models, right?

[01:11:27] Paul Z: It's, it's my, and there have been a bunch of AI stuff for the podcasting space, but this one was next level. I watched it at work the first time and my eyes almost like fell out of my head. I was like, what, what this is. Crazy. How as a podcast, people turn to me and hire me, you know, to say, I want to get my impact podcast off the ground.

[01:11:47] Paul Z: We have an impact podcast accelerator. How do I not tell people about this and the ethics of it are really, really complicated. Right? So I love that you bring that up. And that's one emerging example of [01:12:00] like, when you're a leader, you kind of have to pay attention to certain things, but at the same time, what this means for.

[01:12:09] Paul Z: Our ability to live as compassionate humans in a sustainable way on the planet. I am deeply concerned about it. And that tension is like, I don't know what to do about that tension, but just name it, right?

[01:12:20] Cory: Well, and you know, I, I'm with you on it and I'll add, and likewise, like I, I use a somewhat similar tools for, you know, my, my podcasting process.

[01:12:30] Cory: Um, and, uh, yeah, And also I think it's, it's worth just thinking about how you engage with these tools for the sake of, you know, what, what's, what's like, what's the value that you get out of the process. So even in that context of, of using, um, you know, that, that tool cast magic to do what it does for your, your podcast and create all those different assets, social media, newsletter, whatever, that is one thing.

[01:12:56] Cory: And that's, you know, that's a value on. Efficiency in the time saving and [01:13:00] everything like that, you know, in a different lens, not to say that this is what everyone has to do with their podcasts, but do you get different value out of it? If you yourself listened through it and kind of take notes on what it is that you learned and what you didn't, don't get me wrong.

[01:13:13] Cory: That's going to take leaps and bounds, more time and effort and energy 10 X more time. I'm with you. And also I just think it's, it's worth thinking about work in a different way to where, you know, perhaps if those are the things that you value, then maybe you, you know, you allocate different time and whatever to do those things that way.

[01:13:33] Cory: It's like no one's going to replay like for you. It's like summarize this book for me. You know, and then you read the book summary and I mean, like, was it that transformative for you to be able to read like a 500 word summary versus a 50, 000 page book? Like, I don't know if you're going to get the same type of experience.

[01:13:49] Cory: And so those are just metaphors, you know, for, for, for thinking about it in different ways of like thinking about work a little bit differently, you know, like, what [01:14:00] does that do for you? What does that likewise do for if you're responsible for a team, you know, like thinking about. Efficiency and time saving is, is one component piece of the whole value equation.

[01:14:11] Cory: And it's difficult when you feel this kind of competitive ecosystem to some degree, but you know, Amazon, Google, whomever is going to out AI everybody. Like that's a hundred percent. That's how I see it. And so it's like, where, where do we, you know, more as kind of like indie type folks and small businesses and you know, that like, where do we decide to go?

[01:14:31] Cory: And for me anyways, it feels like leaning into like, what's, what's uniquely valuable about what I do. And as well is the, the experience of what I'm doing going to be as rewarding for myself personally as it possibly can be, you know? Um, so I would just add that component piece to it, but

[01:14:49] Paul Z: it's a complex landscape, Corey.

[01:14:51] Paul Z: And I love that you brought ethics into the conversation because I don't think there's a cookie cutter answer. I just want people to [01:15:00] know, Hey, if you're not paying attention here, there are massive disruptive forces. it in the works. And I want somebody to get caught flat footed about them. If somebody decides, I want to take those notes by hand when I'm listening to my podcast, because that's part of my values.

[01:15:16] Paul Z: And it's a deeper learning. And that's who I want to be 100%. I'm totally down with that. And I do some of that. And there's other things where I do use these tools. But I, I want us to have conversations about this and not Be surprised at what's coming down the pike because at first the early iterations are like, oh yeah, whatever.

[01:15:39] Paul Z: Yeah, it's cool. Like the early iterations of AI was the equivalent of it could make a transcript of Paul and Corey talking. Okay, that's kind of cool, but it's not radically disrupt. Right? What's coming is now I can write a blog post that sounds like Corey. That's different, right? And I'm not saying you should use it, but I'm saying if [01:16:00] you don't understand what it.

[01:16:02] Paul Z: sophisticated and that this, we're going to see it get better and better. You don't understand what's coming. Um, as a social entrepreneur, then I'm worried for you. I'm, I'm worried for the people who kind of take a, um, an ostrich approach. I, I wrote an article on, uh, Social entrepreneurs and AI, a blog post.

[01:16:22] Paul Z: And, um, the image I used was an ostrich with its head in the sand that AI generated, right? Because I was saying it feels to me like a lot of folks in that space have their head in the like, Oh, we're just gonna like high touch and community and I'll be fine. And I think a lot of people will be fine if they're intentional.

[01:16:40] Paul Z: But I think if we default to this has nothing to do with me as a social entrepreneur. Um, I think some folks are gonna right. Get disrupted in ways that, um, is gonna cause a lot of stress. I'm worried

[01:16:53] Cory: about that. Honestly. Absolutely. So let's, let's see, where are we at with our lists? Are we on number five?

[01:16:59] Cory: I think we're on [01:17:00] number

[01:17:00] Paul Z: five. All right.

[01:17:01] Cory: And I think it turns to you then, Paul.

[01:17:03] Paul Z: My number five is people who develop storytelling skills. So there's the work and that we're doing. Whatever that is, you know, really intentionally grown coffee or doing something that helps support marginalized community, whatever your thing is. And then there's the capacity to tell the story about the thing and, uh, social entrepreneurs who have somebody in their orbit.

[01:17:38] Paul Z: Maybe I'm thinking of, um, uh, again in the climate space, an awesome co founder pair. And they're one of the Folks is sort of the genius behind the scenes. Very introverted, very geeky, and it's super important to what that particular climate, [01:18:00] um, startup does. And then there's one person who's way more comfortable like.

[01:18:06] Paul Z: Speaking at climate events was that climate week and like, it's just constantly out there telling the story is much more active on social media. It does. I've interviewed him. Um, does podcasts regularly leads like. I'm a scout for this group as well. Leads like scout meetings. Like it's just a community builder and a storyteller.

[01:18:28] Paul Z: Here's who we are. Here's what we do and is awesome at it. So I tell the story of those two co founders. It's really helpful to have the skillset of being really, um, nuanced in the. Technology or the offering the building the thing, and that's one skill set more like an operations and a technical skill set.

[01:18:52] Paul Z: And if you don't have that, the thing isn't that good. And you're an awesome storyteller. Well, then you're all sizzle, right? And there's [01:19:00] no protein. Um, I've seen that in the social entrepreneur space. And then, but I've also seen, you know, um, folks who have really good technical skills and there's no ability to tell the story and then you have suboptimal results because it, people don't hear about what you're doing or people are like, oh, well, there's already a lot of people doing climate stuff or sustainable ag stuff.

[01:19:24] Paul Z: And, you know, I'm just, I'm just like everybody else. They, they come out of my modify themselves by not. Picking out an angle of what they're doing or several angles and telling the story of what they're doing and recognizing the value in the way that opens up opportunities, whether it's another customer, a VC who gets excited about what you're doing and wants to make an investment, whatever it is.

[01:19:51] Paul Z: to get the resources to grow and scale and help more people. We need the technical skills of building the thing and continuing to make it [01:20:00] better, but we also want somebody on the team and it doesn't always have to be the same person who's really good at storytelling and in the social entrepreneur world.

[01:20:08] Paul Z: I often seen people who pay a lot of attention in the. technical and product development side of things and don't build those storytelling skills. So as a space, I want to, I want to encourage us to, um,

[01:20:24] Cory: Yeah, I think that that's important encouragement. And just on that, you know, thinking about how to tell better stories, I do think one of the most important pieces of advice that anyone can get, I think, is just to try telling your story a bit more, like, just talk with more people about what you're doing, why you think it's important, and where the complexities are, all that kind of stuff, just like talk to more people about it.

[01:20:49] Cory: You know,

[01:20:50] Paul Z: uh, and podcasting is a great way to do that. You don't have to even start your own. You can be a guest on podcast, but it's a

[01:20:56] Cory: great way to practice. Yeah. Well, yeah, I just, I think it can get a bit [01:21:00] formulaic where it's like, this is how you tell, you know, uh, make a pitch. And, and those things are, you know, as kind of heuristics are, are important.

[01:21:06] Cory: Uh, I do think as well, it's like, you'll learn a lot just by. Like getting out to events and talking with people about what you do. And the advice I got for, uh, you know, starting to, to kind of publish and like really pre market a book before even well before that phase, uh, speaking to a friend of mine who's written and published a book before was once you decide that you're doing it, just start talking with everyone you know about it.

[01:21:29] Cory: You know, not obnoxiously, but it's like sometimes it can be something you're working on, can feel like something you want to kind of like hire. You're like, I'm not ready to talk about it with people or whatever. Um, but you know, the way you put the polish on it, as I think by having those conversations with, cause you know, who are you trying to impact typically real humans in the world, you know?

[01:21:47] Cory: And so it, it feels like that's a great way just to, to get your repetitions in. So to speak a hundred percent, and

[01:21:54] Paul Z: I've seen you do that in mentioning the book. I've seen you do that on LinkedIn, for instance, with your book, you're like, I'm working on this chapter [01:22:00] and you know, I'm curious about, or like, does anybody have any examples?

[01:22:04] Paul Z: So you're engaging people in the process of the content of your book before the book is even available for purchase. So good job and high

[01:22:13] Cory: five on that. Thank you. All right. Well, are we here to. My number

[01:22:17] Paul Z: five number five for Corey. Yeah. What's, what's your fifth and last one?

[01:22:21] Cory: I would say patience is, um, one that that's a critically important characteristic of successful social entrepreneurs, just because everything takes a lot longer than you would hope it would and expect it to. Uh, and so that's, that seems to be true, at least in my own experience, but likewise in, in the many that, uh, you know, I've, uh, Followed a social entrepreneurs as far is that, you know, it's a whether it's a small project or just the whole trajectory of the business enterprise organization itself.

[01:22:58] Cory: It's like it's a long time [01:23:00] window. And so, you know, maybe this is more characteristic among younger entrepreneurs, but there is some feeling of like, I'm going to do this for 3 to 5 years and get this thing to this place. And maybe I'll even, you know, sell this thing or whatever. And at that point, uh, you know, go on to the next thing and then I'm going to solve.

[01:23:18] Cory: World hunger or whatever. I do think that just whatever it is that you're deciding to do, you know, I think it's important to have the patience around it. And maybe, you know, if it was the scenario of like, if I wanted to do this as well as I possibly could, whatever that means for you. You know, what does that look like to be in this thing for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, you know, in this particular sector serving that type of community?

[01:23:41] Cory: Because this is one thing that's quite frustrating to me about the lens of like, I do think we get a little bit over obsessed with, with some of these false idols of like the Bill Gates is of the world or whatever, and be like, well, you know, Bill Gates is, and I'm, you know, I don't think that it's listeners so much of our show, but Bill Gates is going to solve climate change or whatever.

[01:23:59] Cory: You know, I [01:24:00] think that that's. So grossly underestimating how much work it takes to understand how that work is done. You know, nuances of natural ecosystems, forest regeneration, everything like that. And I'm just naming this because there's some backlash against Bill Gates right now in some of his climate positions.

[01:24:18] Cory: But just because there's expertise in one space doesn't mean that you're going to have expertise in another space. And so expertise takes a long time to develop. You know, and skill takes a long time to develop, and that's not a scary thing so much as it's like, you know, be patient to pick the right thing and then be patient to stay in the right thing for a long enough time, you know, and I feel like all these people that I've talked about who I, you know, really their experiences.

[01:24:43] Cory: I, you know, look for inspiration from and lessons from. It's like they've been in business for the 20 years, 30 years, you know, or whatever, like, God, how did you get there? It's like, well, it's taking a lot of time, you know, and a lot of small bits of progress sometimes steps backwards, but you know, it's a long journey.

[01:24:58] Cory: And so I think that [01:25:00] patience is an important thing both to, to practice, especially, I don't know if that comes natural to the, the entrepreneur, cause there's a bit of, you know, hustle kind of inherent in, in, uh, that type of character, but, um, something definitely to, to work on and try and mold. Remind yourself endlessly, you know, be patient with yourself, be patient with, you know, the, the outlook and, and the lens, uh, on things and, you know, be patient to, to stick in it.

[01:25:25] Paul Z: Love that Corey. And, and I was just thinking as you were talking, it sparked a thought. It wasn't on my list, but I was just thinking as somebody who's been in this for 16 years and, you know, directly social entrepreneurship and 31 years in the impact space in one way or another. Um, I'm thinking about some of the.

[01:25:43] Paul Z: guest or a lot of the guests I've interviewed. And I'm thinking of what I'm learning. I I'm a, I'm the business coach for an accelerator here in Albuquerque. Now it's the, uh, SBA thrive program. It's the Albuquerque cohort of a small [01:26:00] business administration funded program. And that program is for people who don't have An MBA or formal business training, they've been up and running for at least three years.

[01:26:10] Paul Z: They have at least three employees and you have to be making at least 250k a year. Although most of ours are making somewhere between 600 and one and a half million a year. And the SBA saw a ceiling and I'll apply this in just a second. They saw a ceiling of people who were entrepreneurs, got excited, started a small business, but didn't have the systems and the kind of holistic training of running a business and kind of sealing doubt in their growth.

[01:26:41] Paul Z: And then would either burn out and stop. Um, running the business and to jump to something, go get a job or start another business, or they would sell it, but they sold it for a lot less than what it was worth because it was suboptimal in terms of the systems. And so somebody looking at it, you know, knew there'd be a lot of work.

[01:26:57] Paul Z: And if they could get some of these things in [01:27:00] place, they could double the revenue and sell it for twice or three times as much and really set themselves up in the community for a better situation. I see a lot of that, like. I, I sprint hard as a social entrepreneur and then I hit a ceiling because a lot of us, myself included, do not have a ton of formal business training and we get to a point and then it stops growing or feels like there's just no more hours.

[01:27:26] Paul Z: I have no more bandwidth and it's not growing in terms of impact or end or revenue. So I hit a ceiling and rather than saying let me grow as a leader and develop my skills, it's like, Oh yeah, I'm bored or like, you know, there's some other thing or I might get more return, but I just, I hadn't realized that I've seen this pattern a lot.

[01:27:48] Paul Z: But what I see is when that ceiling happens is when social entrepreneurs jump. And if they wanted to, we can find ways to either ourselves, grow, bring in [01:28:00] help. Or get some mentoring like this SBA program. I'm watching what happens. We're halfway through four. We just did module four last week of an eight week module.

[01:28:09] Paul Z: We're literally three months into a six month program and I'm watching the change happen right before my eyes of these 22 entrepreneurs, only a few who are social entrepreneurs explicitly. Um, but it's Albuquerque. So the number of people who are founders of color and are working to help. Their community is very high.

[01:28:30] Paul Z: Um, but anyway. I don't think we've had that conversation in the social entrepreneur. When somebody jumps, it's oftentimes the leadership has hit a ceiling and they didn't invest in making change. And then they go start a new thing. It's like Rumi, the poet talks about when you're trying to like, get spiritual nurturing.

[01:28:52] Paul Z: There's this tendency to dig a hole. You're trying to get a well, you're trying to hit water, but you like dug a little bit and you got a hole in the ground, but you haven't hit water [01:29:00] yet. And then you assume, Oh, I'm digging in the wrong place. So you see this landscape that has multiple, multiple holes in the ground and none of them have water.

[01:29:08] Paul Z: The person who hit water, it's not that they are genius. necessarily picking a different spot. They probably just dug longer, right? Um, that comes from roomie. And I see that a lot in the social entrepreneur space, particularly from people who don't have formal business training. I want to encourage us as a space to, okay, I'm here.

[01:29:27] Paul Z: Yes, there's inefficiencies or yes, I'm not quite having the impact and or the income that I'm looking for get help. And dig that hole, hit that water, because if you jump to another space and assume it's going to be easier or faster, you're going to make more money. The chances are you're going to bring yourself with you and run into a similar problems 2 years or 3 years or 5

[01:29:48] Cory: years down the road.

[01:29:50] Cory: That potential plateau in growth for a leadership crew or an organization generally, that's an incredible time to get some outside perspective from [01:30:00] a coach, mentor, whatever it might be. And I would add one more thing is that it's just because you aren't necessarily seeing the numbers you want to move, move, or the leads to come in that you're not seeing, or likewise, the product sales or whatever it might be, it doesn't mean that growth is not happening for yourself and your organization.

[01:30:19] Cory: You know, just because the metrics, the external metrics or whatever might not be changing. It doesn't mean that important growth and development isn't happening.

[01:30:28] Paul Z: Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

[01:30:31] Cory: I won't speak for Paul, but to glean something from our conversation overall, success in social entrepreneurship is just as much about the development of our ventures, our services, our organizations, as it is about the development of ourselves.

[01:30:53] Cory: In broad strokes. The drive of the social entrepreneur is to improve the human condition, right? [01:31:00] Some wrong, bring humanity and light to the marketplace where things are darkest offer or provide goods that regenerate and restore versus degrade and destroy.

[01:31:13] Cory: That is the goal. To make things better off, to strive for and achieve the greatest potential for humanity, not the economy. And so there's nuanced differences to doing business better and doing what's better using business. And so social entrepreneurship is a journey vastly different than that of conventional entrepreneurship, even conventional entrepreneurship with greater nod to responsibility and sustainability.

[01:31:43] Cory: It's less about the development or evolution of business and maybe more so about the development of ourselves in humanity, conventional entrepreneurship, conventional business. Appeals to our lowest selves. Greed, self interest, [01:32:00] competition, desperation. The philosophy is to assume the worst of all players, decide that everything has a price, and construct systems, regulations, and norms to account.

[01:32:12] Cory: You must negotiate, knowing that if you don't take your vendor or supplier for something, they'll take you. You must control and surveil, knowing that employees are wired to do the least they can while still collecting their pay. You must compete and destroy, knowing that every industry is a race, and your goal is to win.

[01:32:33] Cory: No matter the costs. On the contrary, social entrepreneurship appeals to something greater. It's about building business, it's about building ourselves in efforts to build the most just, equitable, and sustainable version of reality. It's about seeing the greatest potential for humans and humanity, and no matter the industry, no matter the community, taking the bold, the principled, and well thought action [01:33:00] to bring that vision for something much greater, something much better into reality.

[01:33:06] Cory: How we define success in a field will define the field. How we will and have defined success in business has defined and will continue to define business. How we define success in all our lives. We'll define and determine our future. right, y'all. I hope you enjoyed this conversation of mine with Paul Zelzer.

[01:33:50] Cory: Again, Paul, a business coach for social entrepreneurs is also the host of the awarepreneurs podcast. I highly recommend you check out Paul's show at [01:34:00] awarepreneurs. com or do a search wherever you listen to your favorite shows. And if you enjoyed this episode of the social entrepreneurship and innovation podcast.

[01:34:09] Cory: And I think you'll love my free weekly newsletter, the Weekly Ensemble. Each week, I send an essay on living and working sustainably to thousands of social entrepreneurs all over the globe. To get the next email in your inbox, go to growensemble. com backslash newsletter. Again, that's growensemble. com backslash newsletter.

[01:34:29] Cory: Until next time.